More fuel for the fire, theology stuff Options

[Abrado]

God doesn't exist because I say so.

God , Allah, Holy Spirit , is that You?

[Distillthis]

Hehe, welcome back Distillthis

We are being fairly civil around these parts. its an open ended discussion so feel free to contribute if it do please ya.

I said all I had to say earlier.

[tharsh eats ball...]

This^^^

I like this a lot... It's not committed to a particular sky daddy.

"Religion is but a way of being spiritual... But it's often not an effective way of raising ones spiritual awareness. It's too muddled with fairytales. Fairytales that distract us from a higher understanding."
- Me (an atheist) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Quoting yourself? Pshaw.

[Dillinger]

what would you know about the fractured psyche?
I quote some of myself all the time..
Dude is riding his.
Yhor a spectator.

[tharsh eats ball...]

I would write sth but after profound studying of Kolakowski opus my brain is fuckin dying
I will give ya some questions instead of answers

What God had been doing before he created World ??

Ha!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

If time existed before this world, God would be the likely suspect of creating it. The question is not whether God is almighty, but whether God exists. Because if God, as we imagine it to be, exists, it is almighty. So, if this almighty God exists, it creates time and everything else within that time. How would God experience this time? Does God experience time in the same was as we human beings, with our mortality, experience it? If God is immortal, his "time" must be different from the "time" as perceived by mortal beings.
Therefore, "before" it created planet earth (assuming you mean by world earth and not the entire universe), may not even exist as the same "before" in our perception.

[Abrado]

So you suggest that ,,our"conceptualization of time is different of God's conceptualization ?Then I would ask :how we perceive time straightly related to God's creature ?How we experience changes ? If God created time , in which categories of time had he existed ? Can these categories be ,,grasped" , perceived by human minds?If we answer : ,,No they're not" we must assume that God is uknowable
What was first : creating time , or creating world ? Can we separate time from world ? How the world would look like without time , which is the way of measuring of changes ?
You also proposed that after world had been created , nature of God had changed also. This statement not very fits to ,,Immortality of God" thing , I dunno

BtW , thanks for contributing to this thread . Fresh breeze is always welcome (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dillinger]

1st of all, the concept of time is flawed.
And all these silly little blocks of movement we adhere to are good but only for working purposes.
For EG - it doesn't take much to notice that the hours between 6am and 9am are invariably shorter than the proceeding hours of 10am and 11am, I have also timed the hour of 12 as roughly 38 mins.
God didn't create time.
We did.
And it doesn't make sense.
Also
God didn't create Rambo
I did.
And
The only thing that can kill Barnes is Barnes.

Even stopwatches are against you.

[tharsh eats ball...]

I don't think that the nature of God changed with the creation of planet earth. God is a particular (and varied) concept to us; I think of God as unchanging (and therefore timeless). If God is timeless, he must experience time differently to us. Sure, we can think about what things may have been like in BC times, but we weren't present, like God would have been (and "always is", as some people say). Of course God is what it is, whether that coincides with what we think of or not.
But with that, perhaps the answer to what was first cannot be known. Kind of like the chicken and the egg. Did time start with the existence of God? If God has always been, then does that mean time is also eternal? Or is time as much a human concept as the subdivisions of time that we make (into minutes, hours, etc).
Which leads me to your question whether God can be grasped. I personally can hardly grasp the idea of infinity; that linked to a supreme consciousness (allknowing, omnipresent, all that good stuff)...
that for me makes it hard to believe that God could be knowable to any human being. But of course it is impossible to rule out the existence of people who can understand.

I guess I didn't answer all of your questions, so feel free to repeat them.

Maybe some/most of what I say doesn't make sense to anyone else, but I am explaining it from my own concept of God. Such a personal thing is hard to express, but it is one that's on my mind a lot, and I'm very happy that this thread was made.

[Madden]

When we look at something, it is only as it is in that precise moment we are looking at it. By trying to quantify and standardise all that surrounds us, we find as much to contradict conventional findings as we do to confirm them. The closer we come to answering the unanswerable, the further it draws away. If we continue chasing, we will only grow weary. If we stand still for a moment, perfectly still. It will all become clear.

I put the screw in the tuna.

[Abrado]

I don't think that the nature of God changed with the creation of planet earth. God is a particular (and varied) concept to us; I think of God as unchanging (and therefore timeless). If God is timeless, he must experience time differently to us. Sure, we can think about what things may have been like in BC times, but we weren't present, like God would have been (and "always is", as some people say). Of course God is what it is, whether that coincides with what we think of or not.
But with that, perhaps the answer to what was first cannot be known. Kind of like the chicken and the egg. Did time start with the existence of God? If God has always been, then does that mean time is also eternal? Or is time as much a human concept as the subdivisions of time that we make (into minutes, hours, etc).
Which leads me to your question whether God can be grasped. I personally can hardly grasp the idea of infinity; that linked to a supreme consciousness (allknowing, omnipresent, all that good stuff)...
that for me makes it hard to believe that God could be knowable to any human being. But of course it is impossible to rule out the existence of people who can understand.

I guess I didn't answer all of your questions, so feel free to repeat them.

Maybe some/most of what I say doesn't make sense to anyone else, but I am explaining it from my own concept of God. Such a personal thing is hard to express, but it is one that's on my mind a lot, and I'm very happy that this thread was made.

1)If God is timeless , he must experience time differently from us" -I dont agree. Timelessness in our understanding is at variance with experiencing time at all . So I repeat question: HOW HUMAN BEINGS PERCEIVE TIME ?"
2)If we accept linear conception of time , we know the answer : God was before his creation
3)And now the hardest part :does ,,eternal" can be explained by ,,linear" : Eternal can be represented by straght , without end and begining -this idea sucks a little bit imo. It assumes that before creatio God was working on his beard.
4) Idea of eternality can be grasped by humans: by its represantation of endless straight : similarly to sequetion of natural numbers
5)I totally disagree with statement that God is uknowable. WE CAN RECoGNIZE GOD IF WE CAN HANDLE WITH PROPER CATEGORIES OF TIME
6)What stays in contrast with straight?

[Finch]

what would you know about the fractured psyche?
I quote some of myself all the time..
Dude is riding his.
Yhor a spectator.

I'm glad someone understands!
Yhor the best!

[tharsh eats ball...]

1)If God is timeless , he must experience time differently from us" -I dont agree. Timelessness in our understanding is at variance with experiencing time at all . So I repeat question: HOW HUMAN BEINGS PERCEIVE TIME ?"

Long answer to your question:

But how can you say that when no one knows for sure what eternity feels like? How can you put a human's understanding of time on par with that of an existence that is omnipresent, all-powerful, all-knowing and eternal?
Of course human beings have a human conception of time, which is an abstract concept which may only exist in our heads. Some religions/ways of thought consider time as non-linear and some see the future as something that comes before the past. What does that tell us about time? I put it to you that the fly with an average lifespan of 24 hours perceives time differently from us humans (and there is research which has been done to back this up). That doesn't necessarily mean that lifespan dictates time-experience, but you can't rule out that these two things may be correlated.

But to answer your question more directly: Let's say by "perceive" you mean experience, and not see (because it goes without saying that we don't see time directly, just as we don't see God directly). My suggestion is that humans experience time as relative and dynamic. Relative to our position in this time and also relative to our position in space, or relative to other time-space positions. The birthday is a good example of this: Let's say you're turning 25 next week. That's 25 years as of 1984 and next week as of today. It is also 25 years on a specific calendar, probably the Gregorian and not the Islamic or Chinese, as well as 25 years in a specific timezone on planet earth. So that makes it relative also to our position in space. Dynamic, because human time doesn't stand still. Like someone else said: the moment you say "now", now has already technically become the past.
I would also propose that the concept of time is only valuable to mortal creatures like ourselves, because most of us have to work within the restraints of man-made time: go to work at 8, go to sleep at midnight, etc.
Which brings me back to God, the all-knowing, ever-present and omni-present. This consciousness is not constrained to live within our time - unless you attach the God-idea to humanity and nothing else in the universe. If God is a part of us humans, and us humans only, then logically God will not exist when humans cease to exist - and then it would be more likely for God to experience time.
But if you consider that God is perfect, everywhere and everything, it is unlikely that we and it share the same time-conception. Consider this, from a purely human standpoint: Say you were to live to 800 years old. Your lifespan would look very different to that of the person who lives until they're 87. Perhaps you would have a longer infancy, adolescence, adulthood and old-age. Or perhaps you would have the exact same lifespan as the 87-year old and just be of old age until you're 800. Even if you consider this idea aside from practical matters such as schooling, career and retirement, you must come to the conclusion an 800-year-old will not experience time as an 87-year-old. What for the 87-year-old is half of his life, is for the 800-year-old merely a 20th, a fragment. Now extrapolate that to the immortal God. What to us is a lifetime is for the God how much? A blip, maybe?

And there are ways of thought that suggest humans can become part of that immortality, generally once our bodies have died, or through years of meditation. So I admit that maybe we can experience immortality of the soul and approach an understanding of God. But with experiencing immortality/infinity, we have still not understood all the other facets of God (i.e. omnipresence and supreme power and what else there may be to God's existence that hasn't even reached our consciousness).
But then, even if there is someone who understands the nature of God, how can we tell if they really do? That is the big tragedy.

----
Short answer to your question:

What I mean when I say that God experiences time different from us includes the possibility that time doesn't exist for God.

[Abrado]

Long answer to your question:

But how can you say that when no one knows for sure what eternity feels like? How can you put a human's understanding of time on par with that of an existence that is omnipresent, all-powerful, all-knowing and eternal?
Of course human beings have a human conception of time, which is an abstract concept which may only exist in our heads. Some religions/ways of thought consider time as non-linear and some see the future as something that comes before the past. What does that tell us about time? I put it to you that the fly with an average lifespan of 24 hours perceives time differently from us humans (and there is research which has been done to back this up). That doesn't necessarily mean that lifespan dictates time-experience, but you can't rule out that these two things may be correlated.

But to answer your question more directly: Let's say by "perceive" you mean experience, and not see (because it goes without saying that we don't see time directly, just as we don't see God directly). My suggestion is that humans experience time as relative and dynamic. Relative to our position in this time and also relative to our position in space, or relative to other time-space positions. The birthday is a good example of this: Let's say you're turning 25 next week. That's 25 years as of 1984 and next week as of today. It is also 25 years on a specific calendar, probably the Gregorian and not the Islamic or Chinese, as well as 25 years in a specific timezone on planet earth. So that makes it relative also to our position in space. Dynamic, because human time doesn't stand still. Like someone else said: the moment you say "now", now has already technically become the past.
I would also propose that the concept of time is only valuable to mortal creatures like ourselves, because most of us have to work within the restraints of man-made time: go to work at 8, go to sleep at midnight, etc.
Which brings me back to God, the all-knowing, ever-present and omni-present. This consciousness is not constrained to live within our time - unless you attach the God-idea to humanity and nothing else in the universe. If God is a part of us humans, and us humans only, then logically God will not exist when humans cease to exist - and then it would be more likely for God to experience time.
But if you consider that God is perfect, everywhere and everything, it is unlikely that we and it share the same time-conception. Consider this, from a purely human standpoint: Say you were to live to 800 years old. Your lifespan would look very different to that of the person who lives until they're 87. Perhaps you would have a longer infancy, adolescence, adulthood and old-age. Or perhaps you would have the exact same lifespan as the 87-year old and just be of old age until you're 800. Even if you consider this idea aside from practical matters such as schooling, career and retirement, you must come to the conclusion an 800-year-old will not experience time as an 87-year-old. What for the 87-year-old is half of his life, is for the 800-year-old merely a 20th, a fragment. Now extrapolate that to the immortal God. What to us is a lifetime is for the God how much? A blip, maybe?

And there are ways of thought that suggest humans can become part of that immortality, generally once our bodies have died, or through years of meditation. So I admit that maybe we can experience immortality of the soul and approach an understanding of God. But with experiencing immortality/infinity, we have still not understood all the other facets of God (i.e. omnipresence and supreme power and what else there may be to God's existence that hasn't even reached our consciousness).
But then, even if there is someone who understands the nature of God, how can we tell if they really do? That is the big tragedy.

----
Short answer to your question:

What I mean when I say that God experiences time different from us includes the possibility that time doesn't exist for God.

1. Of course that we cannot entirely prove that Sth , for ex. world , exists. There is a lotta conceptualizations of Sth. If we had accepted that STh is uknowable , science would have never arisen . ergo there is a lotta conceptualizations of eternity. So what is the opposite of straight ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
2. The common feature of relativity of time and dynamics is being linear;as a sequence of time categories , substantial changes, events. No matter how we defy time, quantitive or relative , it will always be and ordered structure, time after time , hour after hour , regardless where you live , or what type of calendar your culture follows. If some cultures perceive time as non+linear , their conceptualization of time would be different . I guess we are talking about Christian God
3. Imo we can perceive time , by perceiving substantial changes : how we are getting older for example
4. Saying that God is eternal or omnipresent is trying to put God into our time, space categories - so God can be grasped , ergo knowable-we can imagine how he exists.
5.What immortality, life after death means for you : I personally dont believe in kindergarten for souls like in Plato conception , bleh

[streetshaman]

(IMG:http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9987/380spaceballs.jpg)

[Abrado]

Infinity

Post sth valuable , I'm tired of debating with myself ....

[Finch]

Infinity

Post sth valuable , I'm tired of debating with myself ....

I would debate more... I just exhausted from debating this topic. Streetshaman got all the fight I had left in me. Now I just don't care. There's a mountain of speculative and hypothetical bullshit that has accumulated on this thread that I don't think think I have the strength to move it. And even if I did have the will to get into all this, I wouldn't even know where to start. There are just too many non-factual claims on this thread (i.e. "Time effects god differently than it does us" and BLAH BLAH BLAAAH!!) Oh well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

When this conversation returns to Earth then maybe I'll join in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
That means you Streetshaman!!! Get that damn book already!!! Before I do!

One more thing... Sorta' unrelated. Someone on this thread was speculating on the perception of time and how if you lived to be 800 years old (Yoda) you would perceive time differently. Well, here's a fun fact!!! Scientists have confirmed that if you could live long enough, you would stop forming new memories at around 500 years old. Isn't that cool?!?!? Approximately after 500 or so years your memory banks will become completely full. So lets say I'm 800 years old, and my memory cut off was exactly 500 years, I would live every day thinking I just turned 500 years old! What a shitty existence that would be! It would be like that movie Memento oor 50-First Dates!

FSM FTW!!!!

[Dillinger]

Or being a Fish?
And you would be an Angel Fish, all pretty colors and stuff,
you know 'cause you like to wear shiny pants!

[streetshaman]

I am lurking and thinking. I have not abandoned the thread, but I did feel the need to add the Spaceballs "When is now?!?" pic for posterity. Mel Brooks sums up time very well in that skit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of time, my relationship for 7 years with my girlfriend just ended so I am taking some time to reinflate my gonads before I launch full bore into the conversation.

'salem's Lot has my undivided attention right now so I will probably get the Karen Armstrong book for travel reading as I hop around the globe this holiday season looking for women who like guys that argue religion on an internet forum! Plus it might make look intelligent on the plane...then again it may be the cause for me to get searched for the umpteenth time. Something about me says "random search that shithead!".

Wish me luck, I will hop back in here once my thoughts are collected. Considering salvia once I am in a state that has not outlawed it for some introspection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Finch]

I am lurking and thinking. I have not abandoned the thread, but I did feel the need to add the Spaceballs "When is now?!?" pic for posterity. Mel Brooks sums up time very well in that skit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of time, my relationship for 7 years with my girlfriend just ended so I am taking some time to reinflate my gonads before I launch full bore into the conversation.

'salem's Lot has my undivided attention right now so I will probably get the Karen Armstrong book for travel reading as I hop around the globe this holiday season looking for women who like guys that argue religion on an internet forum! Plus it might make look intelligent on the plane...then again it may be the cause for me to get searched for the umpteenth time. Something about me says "random search that shithead!".

Wish me luck, I will hop back in here once my thoughts are collected. Considering salvia once I am in a state that has not outlawed it for some introspection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Damn...
I don't know what to say.
How about; Good luck dude! And enjoy your travels.

[Abrado]

I would debate more... I just exhausted from debating this topic. Streetshaman got all the fight I had left in me. Now I just don't care. There's a mountain of speculative and hypothetical bullshit that has accumulated on this thread that I don't think think I have the strength to move it. And even if I did have the will to get into all this, I wouldn't even know where to start. There are just too many non-factual claims on this thread (i.e. "Time effects god differently than it does us" and BLAH BLAH BLAAAH!!) Oh well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

When this conversation returns to Earth then maybe I'll join in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
That means you Streetshaman!!! Get that damn book already!!! Before I do!

One more thing... Sorta' unrelated. Someone on this thread was speculating on the perception of time and how if you lived to be 800 years old (Yoda) you would perceive time differently. Well, here's a fun fact!!! Scientists have confirmed that if you could live long enough, you would stop forming new memories at around 500 years old. Isn't that cool?!?!? Approximately after 500 or so years your memory banks will become completely full. So lets say I'm 800 years old, and my memory cut off was exactly 500 years, I would live every day thinking I just turned 500 years old! What a shitty existence that would be! It would be like that movie Memento oor 50-First Dates!

FSM FTW!!!!

You don't even started debating with US (by ,,US" I mean me and tharsh, too bad she's absent right now , her arguments were transparent , logical , self-critical). This,, speculative and hypothethical bullshit" is considered to be pure philosophy , my dear asshole . Empirical premises alkways lead to some abstract conclusions . Learn more philosophy if you want to discuss( for ex.Khant , aristoteles)
f
Plus , you're a relatyvist , and still the noobest of the noobs. Empirical science isnt always a best way of knowledge